vaultofthearchonfandomcom-20200214-history
109300-you-promised-hard-core-you-actually-delivered-tedium-page-2
Page 1, Page 2 Content Yup that stemdragon bug, luckily the thumpers can lure them away and we can kill it ASAP. | |} ---- Cool I still play RO (iRO with renewal). But lets be honest; RO doesn't have any real attunement ( a single quest in most cases) and there is no reason for it; content in RO isn't intended to be tremendously difficult (and it isn't). I love the game, but not because of its difficulty. Now in MMO world, less than a week is in no way shape or form 'tedious'. FFXI was 'themepark', as was EQ. Both great hardcore games. Speaking of which, wanna talk atunement lets talk EQ eh? holy mother of preposterous atunement batman. honestly, Atunement was fun IMO, and it made me do some pretty cool / challenging stuff. I solo'd the elemental, and while maybe not Hardcore TM I imagine a lot of folks had a good struggle there (i can still remember watching little aurin run into balls of fire and get blown off the tower :) ) My rep was already maxed.. i guess? thats tedious, but I don't really feel too sorry for anyone who hasn't at least mostly maxed their rep by atunement time... just doing the quests gets you to almost full. The vet adventures / dungeons are hard but with a close group they are bearable; andthey are technically puggable (but really, make friends and run them as a group). The mob kills / quests inbetween were fun and were a bit of a challenge; the WB's were ok (though some are still bugged :( ) There are definitely some things I would consider tedious (e.g. post 50 ability enhances); though I do like their intentional rarity, they are very much a tedious affair. But atunement? Not even close. | |} ---- http://irowiki.org/wiki/Rachel_Sanctuary_Quest Wants to have word with you | |} ---- ---- Come now Oli; by the time I cared enough to go play in Rachael that quest had been long opened :) and the quest itself took a day of effort. That said... could you imagine if W* had a similar mechanic to start atunement or a gate quest? All the tears ...... | |} ---- Uhh, so that'd apply to nearly everything the game offered from level 1, since it's the same kind of stuff surely? I mean, what is the attunement process but a start world mob, rep gain, adventures, dungeons, world bosses... So it's all boring? Or just that it's in 13 consecutive steps toward a goal you want? I'm really failing to understand why you think it's monotonous because you can't or won't explain it and simply want to stop the conversation with an off-hand remark about me making an assumption. Fine, you don't like my assumptions, explain, that's what a discussion board is for and what I've asked for from you twice now and you can't or won't give. Geez. You wanted to go semantics (or were you just being uber cool posting a definition so you could be all HAH IN YOUR FACE) or were you actually trying to participate in a functional and constructive way? Right now, I ain't seeing it. | |} ---- I have very fond memories of chilling just inside Payon dungeon way back in the day. Lots of fun there, as well as grinding out seals or stuff in the christmas town-dungeon-thing. Or heal bombing on an acolyte to level. :D Attunements can be fun, they can do all the things that some people around here suggest it does. I just haven't found this particular one fun/interesting or much of a 'teaching experience' as they have claimed. Therefore to me, it's tedious and boring. The rep is definitely one of the most tedious spots of the attunement. I don't like Ellevar, and I went with CrimIsle/Deradune because I found it dreary. Went back and powered through the quests and got the hell out as soon as I could. Didn't even max the faction rep cause I hate the zone so much(though not as much as wilderrun). Slightly off topic here, but reading over various attunement and content threads the past couple days has got me thinking about group content, especially in regards to some other games I've played, as admittedly, I just haven't done a lot of group content, and all of it was without guilds/friends for one reason or another. That is: "Is this content fun on it's own, or is it fun because I'm running it with guild/friends?" To that I have mixed answers depending on the content. Some were definitely fun on their own, others were definitely made better because I was kickin' it with my guild in vent. I very much believe that doing the attunement with some buddies could skew peoples idea of how engaging it is or isn't objectively(which is difficult, because it's a mostly subjective answer in the first place). But I guess I'm rambling now. edit: The combat in WildStar is fun. In that, the devs have nailed what was one of the main things they have set out to do. But most of the content I've found boring so far, or at the very least not terribly exciting. I haven't raided yet, so I can't comment on that - but I can count on one hand how many times I've thought to myself "Hey, this is fun/really exciting". STL the first time I ran that, and immediately after the first Drusera quest, that one quest in Deradune where the old hoverboard physics are turned on and your movement speed gets turned up to 11. There are a few more scattered about here and there, but overall I'm just not terribly drawn in by the content that I've experience thus far. And to make me do it again - yes. I find it boring and tedious to mull through it to get to the meat and bones of the end game: raiding. Edited August 19, 2014 by cfStatic | |} ---- Well rep isn't difficult if you quest it out. Agreed though, rep gain could easily be considered a tedious step by some if on an alt. But that's a different discussion and has more to do with account attunement than the attunement process itself, imo and certainly hasn't been a focus of any of the discussion. I'm not disagreeing with you finding it tedious, just saying until you brought it up, no one's talked about, so have to assume that's not their beef. I still think for most people it's going to be steps 6 and 8 where their main tedium argument lies and we all know why that is (not that I actually expect anyone to be honest about it, I'm guessing they'll go the route of cfStatic and be all "oh i was just bored with it is all, true"). :) | |} ---- Well I've got to be honest then, I can't comment on the rep because I'm a completionist, and have maxed it before I even started attuning with levelling quests. But I can see where that portion would be tedious if you hadn't done all the quests up to that point and had to grind mobs or dailies or go redo quests. I hate crimson badlands , but I like Northern wastes alot.. but that is a personal thing. I found *most* of the atunement process fun/ or at lesat a learning experience. It took me a few tries before I stopped getting my chua rear blown off the elementals tower, and I actually enjoyed it once I had completed it. I was done with rep already, so maybe that helped it feel less tedious for me? The Adventures and dungeons are what they are; and i think they are good fun with friends, but YMMV. The only real tedious part I would say would be the Rep... which like I said, I honeslty can't comment on. The Elder points are quick to get, just have to wait to turn them in for your last few if you start atunement immediately after hitting 50, but that's not tedious so much as just waiting. The WB's I find pretty easy; They are doable in most cases pretty fast with a 4-5 man; soloable if you wan't to spend a long time on each. I liked the quests in between; The Heist was AWESOME imo.. loved sneaking into the other factions museum on their mothership ... I mean, I suppose we just have different opinions on it. That's cool. I personally really enjoyed it, but YMMV. | |} ---- I did have a bit of a chuckle when doing the elemental. It was me and a few Exiles(PVE server). I was running around avoiding the KB bombs and got myself into a bit of a pickle. Jumped and Pounced(stalker) to get myself out of it but ended up hitting one of the bombs on the other side and got pinballed through like 3 bombs and ended up blowing myself off the tower. Had to facepalm at myself afterwards. | |} ---- Gotcha, now I at least have a better understanding of what you're getting at. I don't feel that way, but I understand what you're saying a lot better now. From a couple of your other comments it sounds like you're not a huge of attunement processes in general, either (meaning, in general, neither am I), but I am finding this one quite fun. I really enjoy the adventures and the dungeons and I've liked the little side quests and stuff, have found it meshes well enough with the world story. Each to their own and I appreciate you explaining (which is more than most others have done beyond 'omgzor it's just tedious'). So, I do have a question, of course - would you improve the process or simply remove it? Not interested in details, just interested in your perspective. | |} ---- No problem. I don't have problems explaining what I mean or defending my position - all part of the conversation. :) I don't think I'd remove it, but at the same time I definitely don't know how I would go about improving it(like most gamers, really. Don't know what they want sometimes. Myself included). I can only give my feedback and hope that it improves down the line in future attunement quests. | |} ---- I've heard some grousing among guildies about attuning fresh 50's (new recruits or alts) the planned changes should slightly alleviate it (wouldn't surprise me to see more down the line). | |} ---- ---- | |} ---- ---- Jesus those graphics and mechanics SO HARDCORE!!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bPBz2zb8cYM AMAZING HARDCORE ACTION I'm crying with laughter as i write this xD Hell even TERA was more hardcore than WOW and Tera died in the fire. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLiK7IiHyl4 | |} ---- ---- ---- ---- ---- There are several problems with those steps, not only with the grindy ones, but overall with most of them. The first and most important problem is that they are separated linear steps, so there is no point in runing silver dungeons, adventures o even killing world bosses while leveling if you are not in that step, the rewards don't make it worth it. The second is about fun, it doesn't matter if you take 3 or 40 players, the world bosses are boring and not challenging at all. And even 2 months later we still have some of them bugging out! The third is about 'what's the point?', what's the point of completing a timed run if raid content isn't timed? but that's already going to change. This same question can be done about the elder gems, reputation and even the whole world boss steps since they are in no way a challenge. And the fourth is the social aspect of the attunement, how an individual process can block the access to high-end content for an entire community. Because it doesn't matter if you find it easy and just do it in a couple of days: you need all of your raiders attuned. It doesn't matter if that new guy you just recruited seems promising: you can't take him to your raid unless he completes the whole process. Since not every guild has 20+ players with the same level of skill and commitment, most of the time there will be players repeating some steps of the attunement, making it something really boring. Solutions? 1. Make the attunement achievement bassed: earn all these achievements to get attuned + the linear more lore based quests, you want to make the adventures and dungeons while you farm the reputation? fine, do it and get 3 steps at the same time. 2. I'd rather have to kill a single world boss that feels like a raid boss than kill 12 world bosses that hit like a wet noodle but with a ton of hp. 3. Partially solved, totally solved with solution n1. 4. If we are making a key, let the key open the door for your entire group. Just one attuned player is required to start raiding, but it will still be something everybody wants to complete. | |} ---- LF1M Need UBRS Key. Those were the days :D | |} ---- ---- So. It's smart game design to create a massive MMO... designed for only one part of a potential player-base? And do you think that Only Hardcores would actually generate enough money to support a game studio as large as Carbine? And a game as large (think in terms of art, audio, map, model assets) as WildStar? Please, REALLY think about this. And please, realize that your take on hardcore can't even be agreed on by other "hardcores". If there's anything I've noticed in my years of playing MMOs, it's that no one -- not casuals, hardcores, or casualcores -- can agree on what type of content best suits their type of playstyle. Something is always "not hard enough" or "not easy enough" and the devs lose subscribers either way. | |} ---- I wrote a Treatise on PVE systems improvements a while backed that discussed a lot of ideas like this. One was to "increase" the amount of elder gems things cost, and scale gem gains according to the difficulty of the source. Blending it with the soft cap for elder gems idea (and I've in no way thought through these numbers to make them accurate, they're just examples) I'll propose the following four systems are possible: A: Elder Gems, as they are gained, have no modifier up to 100 (they are guaranteed if they come up in loot). Then, a 10% additional penalty to getting a gem applies to the next ten gems, then a further 10% added for the next ten after that, with a floor of let's say an 80% modifier penalty once you hit 180 gems (if you can). So you will never have less than a 20% chance of getting a gem if it is rolled, and you always "roll" one when you ding elder points. Further from that, every single source has a modifier for the content. Let's assume there's a 20% chance of getting one from a daily quest or other solo venture, 30% chance for a shiphand, 50% for an adventure, and 75% chance you'll roll one from a dungeon. Then, you're into vet content. Clearing a Vet Adventure gives you a 100% chance of getting a gem (meaning you definitely get one). Vet dungeons get one guaranteed gem per bag, and a 50% chance of rolling one additional. Raids drop one per miniboss, one per boss, and clearing the raid awards five. Of course, all of these are modified by that soft cap, so as you clear content, not only can you make it almost impossible to get a gem for yourself after a while of just working on your own, but higher level players are always trying to do harder content for higher gem frequencies. That may prove hard to program. B: Same as A, but scale up. Increase the prices for all things in the elder gem vendor to match this new system. A daily quest awards one gem, normal PVE content automatically awards one, two, and three respectively for shiphands, adventures, and dungeons, with a chance to get them from medal bags. Vet shiphands (when implemented) drop three, vet dungeons drop three plus a higher percentage from the medal bags (meaning you could get up to SIX from a gold medal run if the dice roll your way), raids drop one per miniboss, two per boss, and ten from the end of the raid. Scale gem prices accordingly, as this will drop more into the game, and have a sliding soft cap on gems programmed in and set to start kicking in at 150 such that by 250, you are down to a 20% chance. C: Tier the gems. Elder Gems are gained by doing dailies, regular content, world bosses, et al. They have a soft cap at 140, such that by 180 you are reduced to a chance roll. They drop in all regular PVE as in example A and scale accordingly through vet content and raids. However, we add another type of gem, this one only dropping from bags and random sources (let's call this a Veteran Gem for explanation purposes). So you can grind up elder gems (which are still used for buying stuff for vanity and things should be constantly added for them), but this new gem cost is added if you want to buy certain "levels" of gear or gear tokens to fill in gaps. Thus, you can't grind up elder gems to buy vet dungeon gear content, but you still need them (let's say a pair of gloves or glove token costs 140 elder gems, 10 veteran gems). And so on for raids, which have their own gems (caretaker gems, for purposes here) which have a chance to drop from all minibosses, bosses, and definitely drop in raids. Purchases for content requiring caretaker gems require both elder and veteran gems (200 elder gems, 50 veteran gems, 10 caretaker gems). That tiers the content and might give you the separation. Gems can be downscaled (say one vet gem becomes ten elder gems) but not up. D: Remove the cap entirely, but cap sources soft. Dailies begin to soft cap at 50 and stop rewarding at all at 80. Regular PVE content (eventual shiphands, adventures, dungeons) award gems as above but start to soft cap at 50 and stops rewarding at 80. Veteran PVE content is on the same cap as the regular PVE content, but gives an automatic 50% bonus to whether a gem drops (thus raising the effective soft cap limit to 110. Raids do not have a cap (they have a weekly reset). In all these, PVP servers have a chance to get another bunch of gems from killing people in open world PVP (probably by zone so we can spread the love) and PVE servers have a chance to get those gems from open world PVE fighting world minibosses, and world bosses. And, of course, gems should have a direct way to trade for plat on a reasonable scale. That's a good starting point for a discussion. | |} ---- ---- There's no reason why you can't have that in WS too. I think a lot of the frustration is that there aren't just a few really awesome things locked behind a grind wall, but many things like crafting, cool dyes, amps, abilities, etc. And one thing in particular, which is the ability to raid, which is a core part of the endgame. | |} ---- Honestly, though, the silver medals were the most head-crushing part of attunement. Rep's really not that bad unless you leveled PVP, and even then it's not that hard. More importantly, raiding is, by definition, WAY worse than anything on attunement's list of things to do. Amps and abilities were supposed to be optional additions that would take months to get, and I'm not going to call Carbine out for that. Dyes and costume items, though? Yeah, dye shouldn't be that hard to get and DEFINITELY shouldn't be as expensive to use as they are. If there's one thing I really think is grindy in a way that hurts the game, it's the gold sinks. Like AMP respecs. You think they'd want people jumping in and out of ability respecs almost boss by boss to see how they can use different combinations. What is it, though, one plat to go one way and back? They reduced the price on the advanced mount license, but dyes? It can take large amounts of plat to dye your armor white. Why? That seems like it could be changed. Also, there's a difference between time investment and time gambling. Wildstar has areas where there's a lot of the latter. Time investment means just doing something when you can see the end, know you're making progress and you get there. Elder gem grinds, those are okay in principle (cap's keeping people from playing, though). Having crafting tokens to buy recipes, that's fine in theory. The biggest problem is when you're working and hoping for RNG to drop a blessing on you. Wildstar definitely shouldn't be using elder gems as a backup for RNG as far as ability and amps go, it should be the other way around. Gear should have a price, in currency or materials, not hoping you luck into the right gear and a better combination of stats. Having to run 50 dungeons to get something when you know, more or less, you're making progress with each run is much more tolerable than running those same 50 dungeons hoping one thing you need drops. In the former example, you know why you ran those 50 dungeons; you needed the stuff. In the latter, you essentially ran 49 dungeons for "nothing." It doesn't matter whether or not both take 50, it's easier to grind slowly but consistently rather than pray for rain. | |} ---- Excellent way to put it. Many people just aren't gamblers at heart, at least not when the currency they're putting on the line is something as valuable as time (arguably the most important currency of all). | |} ---- It's sort of what I think people are driving at. I mean, some people grumble about everything that takes time, but they're a small minority. The majority just hate feeling like they're wasting time, not even particularly how long things take. And you might be happy if that 1/50 chance drops on your first run through, but by the time you've run it a hundred times and the RNG gods are screwing you... | |} ---- As an honest question (and a bit of a hijack maybe) - what exactly was so wrong with LFR? Did it supplant heroic or hard more raids? I was always under the impression that WoW's LFR system was a way for casuals to see watered down version of the content for watered down rewards. Is this not the case? As long as there were heroic or "real" versions of the raids, what was the problem? To the OPs post about tedium - I totally agree. I'm attuned now, and after helping several others get attuned I honestly have no desire to play this game. By the time I got attuned and into GA others got burnt out and quit so we had to recruit new, unattuned people and then help attune them. Vicious cycle. I really enjoy the gameplay of this game, and LOVE the difficulty of the encounters but the attunement process really becomes a grind. Again, I am attuned the problem is constantly helping others because of so much turnover in guilds (this seems to be a problem many face). I know they are changing it but it might just be too little too late (plus it looks like those changes aren't until drop 4 at the earliest). That and outside of raid night there really is nothing to do in the game PvE wise anymore. Running others through dungeons for silvers has kind of sucked all the fun out of dungeons and I'd rather drink hydrochloric acid than ever run another daily. | |} ---- No, they nerfed the raids to Hell first, then added heroics initially as a way to string out the lifespan of a single raid. LFR was added because it was possible to pug a raid, it wasn't added as they made raids puggable. It basically replaced people putting raids together in SW general chat since they were clearing regulars. I didn't really like them because it made it harder to get together a real raiding guild. Which, thankfully, wasn't necessary anymore, since we were infilling half our raid with pugs sometimes when people weren't showing up and were reliably clearing heroics. I think the worst part was just before I cancelled my WoW account (I was raiding heroic during Wildstar's open beta). We did a heroic Garrosh fight where, although we explicitly told the PUGs (about 15 or so of them) what to do, they consistently failed to interrupt anything. By the end of the fight, myself (on an arms warrior) and the MT (on a blood DK) accounted for like 3/4 of the total interrupts, as nobody, not even our guildies, were interrupting the healing shamans and later mind control spells. We still cleared him comfortably. And after finishing thinking how awesome we are to clear a heroic endgame boss fight doing almost all the interrupting work ourselves, I thought, "What's happened to raiding?" That shouldn't have been possible. | |} ---- Ah thanks for the clarity :) I haven't raided in WoW since LK so was curious. Sounds like they market LFR differently than its actual implementation. Sorry for the hijack! | |} ---- ---- Serious question here; When you say time required has no relation to rewards, what are you comparing W* too? Honestly curious, I Iook back at other MMO's (EQ1&2, FFXI, Ultima, AC, DAoC, WAR, RO, PW...) the time requirements in W* are tremendously short. But obviously a lot of people seem to think that W* takes a lot of time investment for some reason. IT can't be that W* is simply their first MMO; but I do wonder what it is... So honest question, what are you comparing to when thinking of time investment vs reward? | |} ---- ---- People's opinion of time investment is being amplified by having their hopes dashed when they get the item they want but with the wrong stats. You spend days or weeks of farming and the item you want finally drops but you still can't use it because of bad stats. I think that would make anyone say *cupcake* it, I'm done. | |} ---- So if you get an item that doesn't have the stats you are looking for, what's the difference between that and getting an item you can't use? Besides the fact that you could use an item with imperfect stats for you to hold you over until you finally get the item with stats you want? I can't see any difference between Wildstars system of drops and every other MMO's, except you can get a less perfect version of the item you actually 'want' rather than only get items you can't use until you get the one you want. An item with bad stats for one is an item with great stats for another; drops aren't always going to be perfect for you; as a matter of fact in most games they are rarely perfect for you. While I 100% understand criticism against that type of system, it's also the standard MMO system for better or worse. There must be something else besides standard MMO drops not always being 100% perfect for folks? | |} ---- No, imagine you're playing WoW and you get a purple weapon drop you've been holding out for. But all the stats and slots are randomized, so imagine your 2-handed epic axe with a 5% drop rate coming with that worthless "of the Whale" on it and making it worthless for anyone. | |} ---- Well, to be honest Vic, I don't have to imagine. That game is called Diablo II. I understand some folks don't like the randomized stats system; but in W* the stats are only randomized in a set range, and while the rune slot RNG is a big big problem, it is being taken seriously and is on the way to being fixed . While it is a unique type of system, It's not really any different than a drop system in which you have no RNG on your items but lower droprates (for example EQ ). You would still see your 'perfect' stat item in about the same time, just with W* you might also see a few versions of the item you are looking for that aren't perfect for you (but could be good for another class maybe?). Again, I know runes are a problem, but is the fact that you can get a version of the item you want with stats you don't want (but some one else might want) really what has everyone acting as if W* is impossible and doesn't reward time? To me that just seems like a massively shallow issue given the reality that in most games you spend far longer trying to obtain similar rewards with NO chance to see a less optimized version of it on the way. I mean, its not like very many epic drops are useless; they are all at least decent for some build of some class. I guess I view getting an epic thats poorly optimized for me as getting any other piece of gear I can't use; sure I might not get the most out of it, but maybe that Sin Tank will. I suppose as always YMMV, but that just seems like a non-issue to me. You do content to get a drop chance; you won't always get an item you really want or can use... to me that's part in parcel with the MMO genre | |} ---- The difference is that gear drops like candy in Diablo, but not in Wildstar, and selling it is the main form of currency. The odds of the stars aligning are very narrow in Wildstar, especially considering how much gear you need. I'm not about to quit over it, but I was in a FFXI HNMLS. And what it certainly does is makes sure there's very little reason to want to continue spam running veteran dungeons after you attune. People buy their way in using crafted gear as far as possible and never go back to the veteran content. | |} ---- I'm saying it adds to the problem not is the problem. Having your hopes dashed by a glimps of what you're going after just to have it snatched away at the last second by RNG definitely drives people away from doing dungeons. And because dungeon gear isn't the only way to get good gear people are just avoiding it. | |} ---- They already addressed in last week's Nexus Report that this is a valid concern and they're taking steps to drop the harsh requirements for attunement. It'll still be there but its only basically going to require completing adventures and dungeons. This will better help stabilize guilds not having to worry about replacing people. | |} ---- I'm imagining, and I am liking. | |} ---- Doesn't really matter at this point. By the time they make the changes even more people will have left. CRB staff said several weeks on Reddit and that it won't be patched in, it will be in a content drop so it will most likely be a good while. People won't wait around for months, at least not most people and it's understandable. | |} ---- I actually feel like most players have this kind of approach: "You spend two-three runs and the item you want finally drops, but you can't use it because of bad stats". Don't get me wrong, I'm against randomized stats (by the way, which items have randomized stats in adv-dungeons?(, but if people lack patience, they sure as hell won't be happy in raids waiting 2-3 weeks to finally get a piece of gear. It does actually. If MMO history taught me one thing, then it is this: The MMO playerbase is a bunch of hypocrits. How many rage about the content draught in WoW before EVERY expansion, you think they won't be back for WoD? Yeah right. Same here. Player who silently leave are the real danger. Seeing how lively it is here in the forums, I tend to be optimistic. | |} ---- People go back to WoW because of the fact its been with them for several years. I quit every expansion and always go back, nor do I pretend I'm not going to. MoP I picked up about five months after launch because, meh, pandas. Brother roped me in. Unlike WoW, Wildstar doesn't have tens of millions of people who have paid a subscribtion at some point and time, and maybe, just maybe, want to check it out again after years of WoW being on the(ir) back burner. Every MMO, along with my rl mmo circle that have left a 'new' MMO never go back. Dating back to AoC all the way to SW:ToR. These forums are dead compared to several other gaming forums (World of Warcraft for example). You don't have posts being dropped back pages due to the sheer amount of people posting a new topic. | |} ---- Well, being CREDD-subbed for a while helps keep people around. | |} ---- ^This. Unfortunately. Saw this same thing happen with Old Republic. Even if you try to reason with people who've been very patient with a developer, it truly is a tough sell at this point. A hive mind can be a powerful thing. | |} ---- I think this is a misnomer, personally. Doesn't matter if they're not forking over real money. If they feel like they're not progressing or if all that is waiting for them is frustration, they're not going to stick around. They'll just leave. They might come back at a later date to check out how the game is doing, but I don't think very many people do. | |} ---- I agree with you. Give them 1000 CREDD and if there is no reason to log in, or League of Legends looks more enticing than Wildstar simply because it's "usually fun" then people won't log into Wildstar. Given the vast amount of talent and the very defined skillset at Carbine, I'm sure they considered this as a possible outcome and prepared for it. I for one am fed up of notbeing able to achieve any goals in PvP because of gear, or rather lack thereof and the rating system screwing me over and many others. Carbines very detailed approach and true sense of urgency to rectify the issues with PvP will not keep me and many others around. Mainly because when it happens, it should have been a month sooner. No excuses or rationale can change this fact. I would love to say more and post more facts, however due to the repeated abuse I've received, I'll end it here. | |} ---- I hear you (read you?). What I mean is that it's easier to get someone who cancelled their sub to come back and check the game out if they can do so without payment. So rather than fork over $15, someone can just log on and see if things have improved. | |} ---- Of course, although I know a fair few players that got 4 months of CREDD and they aren't interested in using it really. | |} ---- I'm actually surprised how much faster WS lost players in comparison to SWTOR. | |} ---- Fair enough. I'm CREDD-subbed until next March at the moment. So my perception is a little different than if I were paying $15... but I understand completely that even if something is free, it still has to be worth the time to play. | |} ----